COMMONWEALTH OF
Proof Committee Hansard
SENATE
STANDING COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL
AFFAIRS
ESTIMATES
(Supplementary Budget Estimates)
MONDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2008
Page 134
Senator BRANDIS-Mr Wilkins, I want to ask you about electronic conveyancing. In particular, I want to ask you about the announcement following the July COAG meeting that-I am paraphrasing here-the Commonwealth would move to superintend and implement a national electronic conveyancing system in relation to all property transactions across the nation by 2010. You are familiar with this issue?
Mr Wilkins-I am familiar with it, but you are probably better to get an answer from one of my officials, who understand it much better than I do.
Senator BRANDIS- Certainly, Mr Wilkins. All I want is the answer. I do not mind who answers the questions as long as they are the best witness.
Senator Chris Evans-I think we might have strayed back.
Mr Wilkins- We are now on 1.8, I think.
Senator BRANDIS-No. Whatever. Mr Popple, you, of course, I assume, since you have come to the table, are familiar with the announcement that was made by the Prime Minister and Mr Tanner following COAG. You would, I dare say, be aware of the controversy concerning the suitability of the Victorian based electronic conveyancing system as the basis for the proposed national system? You are aware of that controversy?
Dr Popple-Yes. I am aware of that.
Senator BRANDIS-I daresay that you have followed the articles written by the journalist Chris Merritt in the Australian in recent months to expose the difficulties and conflicts involving ECV, the Victorian government's electronic conveyancing system. Are you familiar with Mr Merritt's articles?
Dr Popple-Yes, I am.
Senator BRANDIS-What is the attitude of the Australian government towards the adoption of ECV system as the template for a national system?
Dr Popple-I do not believe the Australian government has an opinion about the appropriate template for a national system. The Australian government, through the COAG process-particularly at the July meeting, which I believe is the meeting you were referring to
Senator BRANDIS-The 2 July meeting, yes.
Dr Popple-The 2 July meeting was part of the COAG process encouraging the states and territories to agree to an appropriate model for the implementation of a national electronic conveyancing system. Out of that meeting a timeline for implementation was agreed
Senator BRANDIS-Culminating in 2010.
Dr Popple-That is right-a new system in March 2010. The Commonwealth's involvement is to encourage that process, because it is primarily a matter for the states and territories, given their responsibilities for land registration.
Senator BRANDIS-Is the Commonwealth not aware that, for example, the
Dr Popple-We are aware of many of the criticisms because we have been involved, particularly on one steering committee, for some while now, but the point I am making is that the route that COAG has chosen to take involves setting up a new entity to consider these issues and others, to make a decision about how best to proceed and then to implement a system along those lines.
Senator BRANDIS-Are you aware that a man called Rick Dixon provided briefings to the federal Treasury and the federal business, regulation and competition working group? On 23 September, in circumstances in which they had been authorised by COAG to oversee the introduction of the national econveyancing system, Mr Dixon made a presentation in relation to ECV
Dr Popple-I am not aware of that.
Senator BRANDIS-Well, that happened. Are you aware that Mr Dixon is a principal of a computer consultancy called Ajilon which built the ECV system?
Dr Popple-I think I recall reading something like that in one of those articles in the Australian that you referred to, but I am not otherwise aware of that.
Senator BRANDIS-Are you aware that employees of Ajilon hold a number of senior management positions in the Victorian state government, in particular in the Department of Sustainability and Environment, which is the Victorian department responsible for the development of the electronic conveyancing system in that state?
Dr Popple-Again, I am aware only from what I have read in that newspaper.
Senator BRANDIS-Since Ajilon is a contractor to the Victorian government for the development and implementation of the ECV system, and as Mr Dixon and other people interested in the company Ajilon are also on the payroll of the relevant department of the Victorian state government, and as the COAG process has endorsed ECV as a potential template-I am not saying it has a concluded view-for a national electronic conveyancing system, is the Commonwealth not concerned about the obvious conflict of interest involved in those with a commercial interest in the ECV system being employees of the state government which is seeking to implement and recommend to COAG the same system?
Dr Popple-I could not possibly comment on the Commonwealth's view on that. The Attorney-General's Department was not involved in arranging the presentations you talked about. It relates to a state government operation and, as I said before, the only knowledge I have of this, sadly, is what I have read in that newspaper.
Senator BRANDIS-On the basis that the allegations made by the journalist appear on their face to be specific and credible, would the Attorney-General's Department not be concerned if the implementation under its auspices, and under the auspices of SCAG, of a national electronic conveyancing system, favoured a system developed in a particular state-that is, Victoria-in circumstances in which there are credible allegations of a plain conflict of interest between the promoters of the system in their capacity as entrepreneurs and the responsible state government department which employs some of those self-same entrepreneurs?
Dr Popple-The proposal is that the system will be built not under the auspices of SCAG, or under any of the attorneys-general departments, but under the COAG process. I can only suggest that the appropriate organ of the Commonwealth government to ask those questions of would be those that were responsible for the COAG working group-and I think that is the Department of Finance and Deregulation.
Senator BRANDIS-You came to the table, Dr Popple, because you were the officer present who knew about this matter. It had its genesis in the SCAG agenda, did it not?
Dr Popple-It did, but it has taken on a life beyond that since then.
Senator BRANDIS-I understand that, but SCAG continues to have a close interest in the development and implementation of a national electronic conveyancing system, albeit through the COAG process, does it not?
Dr Popple-I am sure that is correct, but it is the COAG process that is being adopted at the moment.
Senator BRANDIS-Indeed, and it is not unknown for a policy proposal germinated within one department, or within one federal and state group of like departments, to find its way onto the COAG agenda. Since this germinated through the SCAG process, and there are now serious and credible allegations that the development and selection of a particular system is not only unsuitable in the eyes of at least one state government but also corrupted by a conflict of interest within the state of Victoria between the entrepreneurs and the Victorian state government department, what steps will the Commonwealth Attorney-General's Department take, as the auspicing authority through the SCAG process, to ensure that these issues of conflict of interest and potential corruption are addressed? What due diligence will you undertake?
Mr Wilkins-Can I answer that question, Senator? I am not quite sure what due diligence we would undertake, but certainly we would need to look at these newspaper articles and, in the context of deciding to go forward, clearly the agencies-which include probably the Attorney-General's Department, the Department of Finance and Deregulation and other state agencies-would need to assure themselves that they were not falling into any traps of the sort you are talking about in terms of conflict of interest and that things were above board. So that would clearly need to be part of the process. Precisely what steps are involved in that I do not know, but you can be assured that the agencies would make sure that there was integrity around the process and that there were no concerns of this sort before they proceeded with anything along those lines. As I say, I have not had a chance to look at it, but we will certainly be bringing it to attention in the process.
Senator BRANDIS-Thank you, Mr Wilkins; that is really the assurance I was seeking. May I take it that it is implicit in that assurance that the Attorney-General's Department will take the trouble to investigate these allegations so as to reassure itself as to these matters?
Mr Wilkins-'Investigate' might be too strong a word. Senator BRANDIS-Well, have a good look at it.
Mr Wilkins-Yes, indeed-we will have a good look at it.
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